Right of Abode Issue for Domestic Helpers Getting Ugly
Posted by SpikeJul 30
For those who don’t know about this, an important component of Hong Kong’s economy is the domestic helper. Mostly female, mostly from the Philippines and Indonesia, they come here on special visas and are expected to work a 6 day week and usually a 16 hour work day (or more) and in return are paid roughly HK$3580 (US$500)(not sure what the current legal minimum is) plus room and board and a plane ticket for a home visit every two years. No matter how long they’ve been here, they can’t qualify for HK permanent resident status and if they lose their job, they have just two weeks to find another one or have to leave.
Many of these people are now banding together to protest what they see as unfair treatment by the government and demanding the ability to apply for permanent resident status after seven years. The upcoming lawsuit has thrown the HK government and many HK residents into a frenzy. The SCMP reports this morning that there is a “storm of opposition online” including, wait for it, a Facebook group. The name of the group on Facebook is ”Against foreign helpers obtaining right of abode. Protect the welfare of Hong Kong people from being seized” and that page has all of 1,200 likes. Given the number of people in Hong Kong who are on Facebook, I’m not sure that 1,200 “likes” should be enough to even qualify for news coverage.
Who are the people who are against this happening? People like, ahem, Movie Tam, who has written, ”Foreign helpers only come to Hong Kong to work. What makes them qualified to have the right to stay in Hong Kong?” Someone named Pixer writes, ”The maids have `three lows’. Low education, low income and low experience, but they know English. Employers will therefore tend to recruit them more as they will accept lower wages.”
Fortunately, there are also people with silly English names on the side of the maids. People like Fish Ip, who is the campaign organiser for the Hong Kong Federation of Asian Domestic Workers Unions. Fish says, “It is quite unfair that other people living in the city for seven years can have the right of abode but the helpers never can. People should look also into the core problem like the constitutional issue instead of making verbal attacks on these helpers.”
The maids fuel our economy. The current state of our economy practically screams two income families and both spouses cannot go out and work without having someone to stay home to take care of the kids and grandparents and pets and plants.
As near as I can figure it, the fear comes from lower class HK citizens. I suppose they are thinking that once a domestic helper gets permanent resident status, they no longer have to work as a domestic helper, they can go out and compete for other jobs. But what jobs might they qualify for based on their most recent experience? Hotel chambermaid? Line cook or waitress?
My take on it is that these people have done the time and are just as deserving of resident status as anyone else. And if you’re afraid that a foreign maid might take your job away, maybe you should be examining what’s gone wrong in your life rather than attempting to ruin someone else’s.
Addendum #1 – I think the attitude of some people on this is consistent with the mainland government’s approach to things. As an example, the Chinese government attempting to spur on the local film industry not by investing in the kind of education that would lead to better film makers and better films but by keeping 90% of foreign films out of Chinese cinemas (years after joining the WTO to boot). So it’s easier to be negative – to hate these non-Chinese or if not hate them, at least deny them what should be their basic rights because they know that they themselves can’t deal with the competition. They can’t compete so they seek to push others down.
Addendum #2 – Assuming that Mr. Movie Tam chose Movie as his English name because he likes movies, now I’m wondering why half the male population here isn’t named Fucking. Though that does increasingly seem to be the English name for Hong Kong’s Chief Executive.


76 comments
Comment by Adam on July 30, 2011 at 9:54 am
Agree that once someone legally stays in Hong Kong they should be allowed to get permanent residency no matter what job they are doing, or what colour their skin is.
However, I do think the whole issue of immigration in Hong Kong needs to be re-thought. While senior officials call for a city of 10 million (this will apparently bring us closer to being a ‘world class city’), I think we should be looking at stabilising the population at the present level of around 7 million.
I can see that people would call me selfish for saying so – I did my 7 years and got my permanent residency, so why shouldn’t others have the chance, but the question remains of where the new immigrants (be they Filipino or Mainland Chinese or western) will live (Tin Shui Wai anyone?), what jobs they will do, where their children will be educated, where they will get health care, and where they will relax and enjoy life?
Comment by Spike on July 30, 2011 at 10:04 am
That’s good points but not unsolvable issues. In the case of the domestic helpers, we’re talking about a total of I’d guess 200,000 people. Unscientifically, let’s say that about 30-40% of them would qualify for residency and that some percentage of those would have no interest in it. So I think we’re talking about 25,000 people. Which in one fell swoop would seem to be a massive influx. And perhaps it might well be, because many of those would then choose to bring members of their immediate families here if possible.
So on the one hand Hong Kong still has at least 65% undeveloped land and an inequitable land policy. And on the other, Hong Kong is already bursting at the seams – just ride the MTR during rush hour to see that it’s already at capacity and maybe even slightly beyond.
So yes, there needs to be a larger scale holistic approach to all of this; something that most of our Fearless Leaders seem incapable of devising.
But the fact that it’s difficult doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be done.
Comment by jack on July 30, 2011 at 12:59 pm
Spike I reckon this is one those careful what you wish for issues. It may result in the government restricting domestic helper visas to six consecutive years.
Comment by Gary Kirchherr on July 30, 2011 at 1:40 pm
FWIW, Spike, the new minimum wage for domestic helpers is $3,740 a month, plus a $775-a-month “food allowance,” unless the employer supplies food for free. Still pretty low pay, given the hours and working conditions.
Comment by mumphLT on July 30, 2011 at 1:48 pm
DH’s suffer 3 Lows? Well many of them are beret educated and speak more languages and have greater motivation and energy than many in HK. Low experience? Bollocks – given that they train as and specialize as DH’s with all the skill sets that needs, and the low salary – thad mandated by the government.
Bloody tossbags.
Comment by nulle on July 30, 2011 at 1:53 pm
Spike,
don’t forget this…if and when the maids obtain residency…they will be eligible for CSSA (and any cash handouts), public and HOS housing, free education and free public medicine, MPF and ability to sponsor their relatives (entire family) to be eventually permanent residents of hong kong…some of those elsewhere have college education or masters and would love the opportunity to live and work in hong kong…
so you have to think about this issue from the government expediture and the exponential growth if the maids obtains residency (same applies to allow more mainland chinese into hk)
I am neutral on this, just as an observer.
Comment by Spike on July 30, 2011 at 3:50 pm
Jack, I think the idea of 6 year maximum is entirely within the realm of possibility.
Nulle, if and when the maids obtain residency, if they obtain work other than domestic helper, especially the ones with college educations (which is actually a large number of them) they’ll be paying taxes just like everyone else so where’s the downside? And if they want subsidized housing, they can join the list and wait for years just like everyone else.
Comment by stephen on July 30, 2011 at 7:34 pm
I refer to SCMP Opinion, dated July 29 regarding the aspirations of maids.
The media is “spoon-feeding” the public on this topic and we have yet to see anywhere the “fair and balanced” reporting that people cherish.
Here is a snapshot from the internet, 2 years ago. It is still valid today. ( Credit is due to Sartiwen Binti Sanbardi, The President of the Indonesian Migrant Workers’ Union, HK)
“What other problems are there?
Extremely long working hours and non-respect for statutory days leave. Some employers only allow their domestics to sleep for three hours a night. In many cases the employer or the employment agency keeps the women’s identity documents, placing them in a very vulnerable position. The Indonesian domestics who come legally to Hong Kong only have the right to stay for two weeks after the end of their contract with an employer, after which they have to return home.” (She forgets to mention the common practice of keeping workers indoors, after their duty is finished.)
“Where do the domestics sleep?
Until two years ago, domestic workers were still allowed to sleep outside of their employer’s home, on his approval. That has changed now. The law of Hong Kong now stipulates that domestic workers cannot sleep outside of their employer’s home. The same law does not oblige the employer to provide the domestic worker with her own room, but to inform the immigration service whether or not this is the case. Many domestics don’t have a bedroom of their own. Many migrant domestic workers are not decently lodged and have to sleep on balconies or armchairs in the living room… We are currently supporting the complaint of an Indonesian domestic worker who has to sleep on a floor mat with dogs. Not having one’s own room also increases the risk of sexual abuse.”
Other shortcomings which commonly appear in HK include:
• Recognition of domestic workers as workers
• Worker rights in law – equal to other workers
• Decent conditions of work, including limitations on working hours, rest periods,
over-time pay etc.
• Freedom: of movement, to change employer, from harassment, from physical
and psychological abuse and sexual exploitation
• Poor regulation of recruitment and placement agencies
Need we go on?
We rely on SCMP for a fuller picture.
S Crampton
Comment by Spike on July 30, 2011 at 7:55 pm
Stephen, yup to all, except – people here cherish fair and balanced? News to me.
Comment by stephen on July 30, 2011 at 8:05 pm
Hello Folks, I just posted my latest letter to SCMP. The HK media seems to have a policy on self-censorship and that is why they are not reporting in a fair and balanced way. For evidence, see 2005 concerns from The HK Human Rights monitor. (it’s all over the internet) (see http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xijdor_hong-kong-media-practicing-self-censorship-survey_news) That’s why six letters from me on Human rights have not been printed, but four on other topics were in previous months and years.
Turning to your blogs>
1. The girls just want to work and get treated properly.
2. On a low salary, they can’t afford to bring a family over and live outside the work place. In reality, these things won’t change. Unless they were paid well above the minimum wage, they could never afford the living costs in HOS or public houses or putting kids thru school. Who on this site dreams that they would bring their kid’s to HK without English language school places? Get real! (that’s gonna be a problem, when they try to recruit medics from overseas. Even the HK Chinese won’t return back, without affordable English school places.)
3. If normal constraints are applied on everyone, like USA’s 100 week limit, or UK’s limits on benefits, then nobody (equally) will be taking advantage of the Government purse.
4. Helpers tend to go home and stay home. They are family loving, religious types. They save money to build a home in their own homeland.
5. Their retirement prospects are better at home, where their limited savings will have better value for money.
6. Example. I met an “American” Filipino doctor a while ago in Manila. After a life serving in ER room in USA, he retired back home and lives a comfortable life on his savings. He could not have the same lifestyle in USA.
7. HK urgently needs more nurses. “Pixer” who is not man enough to name himself, is incorrect. Many Filipinos are well qualified to international standards. If they are allowed into HK, there will be changes as HK people will at least stop looking at all Pinoys as uneducated natives.
Many are teaching and babysitting Chines kids for free, in addition to their job sheet.
8. Somebody need to speak on behalf of the Helpers. They need professional help with P.R.
scrampton8@aol.com contact me !
Comment by gweipo on July 31, 2011 at 8:23 am
If you think HK is bad, try Singapore. It’s appalling the way the DM are treated like Chattels of their employers. Modern day slavery would be a polite way of calling it.
But still, I think it’s an absolute shame that this type of discrimination and fear still exists in this day and age. In the early part of the 1950′s HK managed to absorb 100000 people a WEEK who were fleeing from China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950s_in_Hong_Kong), this is small stuff in comparison.
Just shows you the racist core of society, because before the immigrants were ethnic Chinese.
Comment by THE VISA MAN on August 1, 2011 at 12:46 am
Who says if the DH can get the same right for permanent residency here, that they really want to stay and bring all their families in. Thats nonsense in my opinion. They are very strongly connected to their homeland – besides this Hong Kong is so expensive – how can they manage this ? Even if they are
changing jobs from helper to lets say nurse ……….
Gweipo: No need to go to Singapore. I know cases of families 6 helpers within 3 years – the wife already blacklisted in the Philippine consulate – now the husband need to make the contracts.
I know other cases were the wife sends her mother to monitor the helper around the clock during wife & husband are at work. Thats “a lot of fun” for the helper – be assured.
Helpers need to be considered part of your family – they are human beings.
In Hong Kong many people employing maids from Phi or Indonesia are treating them very bad – like shit – shame on all of them !
Comment by mumphLT on August 1, 2011 at 11:55 am
Ah yes, I know of a couple of people who claim to be ‘Unlucky with bad maids…’ never occurs to them that they are the problem.
Comment by Dave Chan on August 1, 2011 at 6:01 pm
Enough is enough. There are already too many people crowded in HK which is a very small place. Our government is impotent in having failed to formulate a sensible immigration policy long time ago. As a consequence, we have been facing an influx of immigrants from the mainland and south-east asia; and now the Filippino domestic helpers join in the scramble. Those who have settled in HK – like Spike – can always go back to their own countries if things get nasty here. I was born in HK – the only place where I have right of abode. I have nowhere else to go. I think people like me should have a say in the matter. Dont force us to form a party like BNP in the UK.
Comment by stephen on August 1, 2011 at 8:58 pm
Hello Visa Man,
I fully agree with you.
Your comment belongs on the Facebook page called “against Foreign workers getting right of abode”.
There are 1500 votes against.
I don’t use facebook and I hear that page is in chinese…but you could post it anyways.
I am doing my part.
I am writing letters to SCMP, to the Fil consulate and I am in touch with worker organisations, trying to get them to overwhelm that facebook page and prepare professional press releases.
What can you do? What PR experts or others do you have contact with?
best wishes,
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by Spike on August 1, 2011 at 10:08 pm
Dave, I am sure that there are going to be many who disagree with you on this, and I am one. The law says that if you are here for 7 years you qualify for permanent residence and there is no reason why that law should not apply to them. Hong Kong is a very small place only because of the government’s land policies. Hong Kong is fricking huge and could hold quite a few more with proper planning.
Comment by stephen on August 1, 2011 at 11:04 pm
Hello Everyone.
If anyone is brave enough to give an email address, I will send you (David ) information which explains this topic much better. It is too long to put in this little box. I have sent a lot of info to SCMP newspaper but they do not publish.
The HK media has a self-censorship rule and will not publish things about Human Rights, in case some journalists grandma disappears across the border!
Sadly, David, you only see one narrow side of the story.
This is not an immigration problem like UK, where homeless refugees come without jobs and get free help. These girls already work here and want to continue to do low paid jobs which Hongkongers don’t want to do. (How many HK people trained as maids with all that re-training levy??) (probably none.)
The workers simply ask not to be second class people.
I have listed the problems before. Forcing them to work on Statutory Holidays and keeping their passports are examples.
The United Nations also reports problems with HK going back years, HK has not improved its human rights to others, but wants more rights from Beijing.
Is that fair David?
( quote from UN>>”Despite the adoption of legislative measures aimed at combating
discrimination in Hong Kong SAR, the Committee reiterates its concern
(A/56/18, para. 248) at the situation of migrant workers, and in
particular domestic migrant workers. It notes with concern that the
“two-weeks rule” (whereby domestic migrant workers have to leave Hong
Kong within two weeks upon termination of contract) continues to be in
force, as well as the live-in requirement, and that migrant workers may
be subject to longer working hours, and shorter rest and holiday
periods. (art. 5 (e))”
That is about working Sunday mornings and Sunday night and “Curfews”.
(The International Labour Organization says everyone IN THE WORLD is entitled to 24 hours of continuous rest. Do you agree David?
Please “get real” everyone. This is not about money it is about a fair society.
If HK is happy for old ladies to collect trash, to pay for their living, refuse them “Fruit Money” if they live across the border to save on costs…why would maids expect HK to look after them when they don’t look after their own people?
Thank you for discussing the subject.
scrampton8@aol.com
email me !
Comment by stephen on August 1, 2011 at 11:18 pm
David, one thing I forgot.
if something “bad” happened (like you say) then, like 1995_7, Australian, Europe and Canada etc etc would offer you help. Those places welcomed you before and it would welcome you again. I can only write about UK, but I can say that all those thousands of fast-food shops (low rearing jobs) are Chinese people…and all those people are EQUAL citizens. They can change jobs if they like, go outside after work and even become an MP if they want.
Why do you think all those Hongkonger doctors and nurses are not “rushing back” to the motherland to help the hospital shortage? They like the freedom.
BTW: Do you think they have 2 weeks to find a new job ?? …Can David find a new job in 2 weeks?
If the Hongkongers did come back, would they want a Chinese language school for their kids?… but that’s another true story, for chatting another time.
I live in the real world. Please join me.
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by THE VISA MAN on August 2, 2011 at 1:12 am
David – sorry. Things getting nasty here earliest after June 30th 2046 ! Dont worry too much about that. Actually regarding the DH if getting the right of abode – they are here already …………So the small place is already including them. And as said before many of them will maybe just be happy to have the permanent residency – negotiate a little bit on their salary & be happy not to go through that application procedure every 2 years – which by the way is a money making machine also (Immigration Dept & some kind of Philippines OFTA or whatever it is called). Me as an employer of a very hard working & loyal maid – I am actually also tired of these procedures which also cost money. And if in the end I pay her HKD 5,000 + free diner (our maid exactly eating same food as we eat – but I know cases many HK people are less “generous”) + free living & MTR etc – I dont care as long as this crazy admin is skipped. And by the way: Do you think Hong Kong is a society where suddenly thousands of Philippina maids with gained permanent residency suddenly can jump into employments paying them HKD 10,000 or 15,000 or 20,000 etc – surely not. So the permanent residency mainly will keep the maids somewhat on a safe side to avoid this applicaation procedures etc. And to have a slightly better chance to choose by themselves. I do not see a big problem with that.
Comment by Dave Chan on August 2, 2011 at 1:28 am
Spike – I am sure the majority of HK Chinese like me – born and raised in HK – agree to my views. I believe you dont read Chinese so you dont know the views expressed in the Chinese forums which are the mainstream opinions on the matter. About the law you mentioned, your understanding is not exactly correct.
Stephen – HK is a free society. Nobody forces these girls to come to HK. They accept the terms and come to work as DH – a matter of contract. If they dont like the work conditions, they are free to go.
To be frank, we are quite sure your views belong to the minority. We simply dont care. So I wont drag on here. Bye!
Comment by gweipo on August 2, 2011 at 4:28 am
Yes, I know HK is / can be bad. But here, helpers are entitled to only 1 day off a MONTH. There is no minimum wage, only a “guidance” figure and it’s so low you could be paying more in monthly levy to the Government than what you pay your maid.
Helpers have to have a medical check including pregnancy check every 6 months and if they fall pregnant they’re on the next plane home and their owner (oops sorry, employer) faces the risk of and fine / and or jail sentence. I could go on.
It is no wonder that I’m finding it very hard to find the same spunky, smart, go-getter helper that I was used to seeing in HK. Proves the point that people rise or fall to societies expectations of them.
Personally I really don’t see the issue here. It’s a simple human rights issue. You use that as your basis and make sure you put all the logistics into place to accommodate a basic value issue which is that “all people are equal in the eyes of the law” ….
Comment by Spike on August 2, 2011 at 7:36 am
Dave, I don’t read Chinese, true. However I don’t believe that a few or even a few hundred posts in online forums means it is the mainstream view, it only means it is the view of the people in the forums you frequent. And you contradict yourself by saying “HK is a free society” and then saying that you don’t want these people to attain residence because, essentially, they are not Chinese. What kind of freedom is that?
Comment by nulle on August 2, 2011 at 12:58 pm
spike, new ammo on this debate from the government…
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?
pp_cat=30&art_id=113716&sid=33241485&con_type=3
For those of you who doesn’t read chinese (sans Gweipo, I am impressed…) google translation will get you the gest of the stories in chinese newspapers (http://the-sun.on.cc/main.html; http://paper.wenweipo.com/; ESWN blog)
—————–
Dave Chan, I would disagree from your view…if you doesn’t like living in Hong Kong, I would seriously get out of dodge and immigrate (either via investment, talent, etc.) elsewhere. Invest in yourself and you are never too old to learn…
Personally I think the game is up for HK given what I see the past 10 years and I haven’t seen anything to prove otherwie so far. I think the HK gov’t and the elite are pure cowards and brainless to stand up to the CCP. (ex. Article 23, mainlander right to abode, economy or lack thereof, direct CE elections, how the CCP constantly chiming in and messing with hong kong affairs.)
There is still hope, but a LOT needs to change for HK to be vibriant like the late 80s and early 90s. Sucking up to CCP and this education about patriotism (to China) is NOT one of them.
Comment by Juliana on August 2, 2011 at 1:03 pm
Obviously the situation is worse where these domestic helpers came from back home so they wish to seek a better future abroad. Hong Kong is a free market and they agreed to the terms and conditions working here. If by chance they honestly didn`t know what they were coming into working here in Hong Kong as a domestic helper they can leave their job before or after their first contract which is way before the 7 years permanent residency which they don`t get. From my understanding this policy of 7 years for a permanent residency was created by the British to avoid a large influx of $$$ migrants and to weed out the riff raffs. This policy isn`t just enforced towards domestic helpers but to Westerners too. The noise about bad treatment and injustice towards these domestic helpers is just pure Political Correctness and bleeding hearts syndrome bollocks speaking. People who really feel sorry for these domestic helpers should pay atleast double from what they are getting further out of their own pockets each month and I really doubt that these holier than thous would actually do this. There should be a domestic helper fund just for the bleeding hearts to put their money where their mouth is. Bottom line if you don`t like the treatment then go back from where you came from.
Comment by stephen on August 2, 2011 at 1:49 pm
Hello Guys, Steve Crampton fully agrees with Visa Man and Spike.
Saving wasted time and money on Immigration procedures helps HK Employers and help the Maids also. They get treated like animals in Immigration Tower. i have sat in there too and it is like a farm!
I gave my email address and offered to help educate HK David. Sadly he declined.
It is a pity that he did not tell us what the Chinese Facebook page is actually saying. I have asked friends to find out, so that I can put a polite reply (in a fair and balanced way).
David also did not reply to my question “Can you get a new job in 2 weeks David?) Let’s assume n”no” because, as I said before, I live in the real world.
Now he seems to have run out of the kitchen, which is a shame because it was good to discuss this topic with him.
In my last posting I was concerned about David’s comment that he (a HK Citizens) has “nowhere to go, if things went bad”. I write today to remind you what was reported in SCMP newspaper yesterday.
I start by reminding you about the recent mention on this discussion about Maid’s levy and the “size” of the levy…and you insure your maids too.
So, here we go>
SCMP 1 August front page and A3…”Hongkongers still face mainland tax blow” (summary by steve follows)…10 countries are talking with PRC about tax and insurance for foreign workers on the mainland. The costs are high. HK, Macau and Taiwan are considered as foreign countries by the mainland.
(These are all places where David could go, pretty easily if things went bad, as he said.) SCMP says that there are 200,000 Hongkongers working in china. (David could go there too.) That figure is a reminder of the number of maids we chat about. The topic which worries the ongkongers is the high cost of social security for workplace injury, maternity etc etc. (Remember the levy you paid and the insurance you pay for your maid?)
A Hongkonger earning 12,000 HKD (if one exists) would pay 21% of their salary to cover tax AND social security.
So what is HK’s suggestion? (Please note that the other countries are negotiating equivalent (reciprical) agreements, whereby social security is not paid on both sides?
This wont’ be a surprise…..No, not for them. HK Chamber of Commerce prefers a complete exemption from the regulations, which means of course that mainland people in HK would not enjoy such equal protection. There was no mention of Hongkongers being banned from mainland hospitals and services, if they don’t pay for them. It appears therefore, that they would like those benefits for free. “Hey, were helping the locals, give us a break”
(Now that would be a nice “free lunch” for 200,000 hongkongers, if they can get that agreed.)
It does make me wonder why Hongkongers complain a lot about stuff when it touches them, but they are “blind” to things which they do to impact others. Just look at those brown coloured Honkongers in TST and how those people are given second level education and denied work, even though they are bi-linguals, born in HK.
Final note>
Did I ask David what he thought about the UN requirement that ALL people, across the world, get a FULL 24 HOURS CONTINUOUS rest break – every week (no curfews)?
This is just one example why maids need proper status and recognition with PR.
Thank you for your time. ps…Gweillo’s don’t go back to YOUR country for more than 2 years okay!! If you don’t know, ask. You to Dave !
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by stephen on August 2, 2011 at 2:11 pm
David Chan wrote (quote)
Stephen – HK is a free society. Nobody forces these girls to come to HK. They accept the terms and come to work as DH – a matter of contract. If they dont like the work conditions, they are free to go.
reply>
the contract is forced upon them. They have no power to negotiate.
What is promised in the contract is not always delivered. The Employer demands excessive hours and no Stat holidays etc. If David was working overseas and mother got sick – hey I will call my employer from the airport.
Maids are not Free to go home. The Employer holds their passports.
That is called “Modern day slavery” Try to watch and learn about that on CNN.
“We simply dont care. So I wont drag on here. Bye!”
What kind of mature, intelligent attitude is that? It is not an attitude that would get David a job in the UN, or a charity or as a Diplomat.
Did David ever read…when the Nazi’s came for the Jews, I didn’t care because I wasn’t a Jew…..but then they finally came for me and there was nobody left to complain.
What goes around , comes around..it’s called “Karma”.
scrampton8@aol.com
There is a destiny that makes us brothers: none goes his way alone,
All that we send into the lives of others comes back into our own.
~Edwin Markham
Comment by Spike on August 2, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Juliana, you really don’t seem to know what you’re writing about.
” This policy isn`t just enforced towards domestic helpers but to Westerners too.” This makes zero sense.
” The noise about bad treatment and injustice towards these domestic helpers is just pure Political Correctness and bleeding hearts syndrome bollocks speaking.” Well, no it isn’t, and the fact that you say it does despite mountains of evidence to the contrary does not make it so.
There is no legal or ethical basis for denying domestic helpers permanent residence here via the same guidelines used for every other migrant.
Comment by stephen on August 2, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Hello Folks,
I have just contacted the nice lady Editor who wrote that report for the Standard, which I cannot get easily in Macau. I have asked her do do some fair and balanced reporting (to borrow those words from American TV).
I have requested that she contact the maid’s representatives and find out what the maida actually want.
That would be a good “first step” for Julian, too.
Juliana please have a look at the list of human rights issues in my earlier postings.
When you finish work tonight, please have a look around and ask yourself, “where are all these 250,000 helpers?”
here is a snapshot from the U Nations several years ago>
The International Community says:-
“Despite the adoption of legislative measures aimed at combating
discrimination in Hong Kong SAR, the Committee reiterates its concern
(A/56/18, para. 248) at the situation of migrant workers, and in
particular domestic migrant workers. It notes with concern that the
“two-weeks rule” (whereby domestic migrant workers have to leave Hong
Kong within two weeks upon termination of contract) continues to be in
force, as well as the live-in requirement, and that migrant workers may
be subject to longer working hours, and shorter rest and holiday
periods. (art. 5 (e))”
The ILO (Labour Org) has members like Saudi, Vietnam and China but not HK. It requires that everybody on the planet is entitles to 24 hours of continuous rest per week.
Are you starting to catch up?
How are you going to help these folks?
best wishes and please to be helping.
scrampton8@aol.com
email me.
Comment by stephen on August 2, 2011 at 5:31 pm
can any of you nice people who happen to be facebook users, please leave comments on the page ..”Against Foreign Workers…right of abode”?
Is that possible?
I don’t use facebook, but you can find me on linked-in.
Please Note that the name includes us as well as maids.
Also note Juliana, that a “Permanent Residency” for you or me will be void, if you stay out of HK for 2 years….so that is an example of racial discrimination which Spike writes about. That does not apply to a born-n-bred indigenous person…and when you go through Immigration, do notice how all the maids have to queue with the tourists as their cards don’t work in the e-channel, which you will notice is mostly empty. A week ago a tourist wrote in SCMP complaining about unnecessary queue’s, bless him.
He didn’t realise that his queue has to be longer, to keep the status quo.
Welcome to Asia’s World City.
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by THE VISA MAN on August 3, 2011 at 12:44 am
Something else here:
Stephen your email adress seems having a problem:
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.
Delivery to the following recipients was aborted after 9.0 hour(s):
* scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by stephen on August 3, 2011 at 6:54 pm
Mr David Chan,
a friend of mine (HK Chinese) just made an interesting comment which might help you.
He asked, “If I kick a dog in the street, it is free to run away but does that make it correct?”
Read and learn David, read and learn !
Has your boss got your passport Dave?
Does he send you directly home after office or are you allowed to go Macdonald’s if you like?
scrampton8@aol.com
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by stephen on August 4, 2011 at 12:32 am
Letter regarding English language……developed HK and enabled it to
grow into the
“free and fair society that it is today.”Louis Fok, July 31.
[I am glad it's fair from where Louis is standing. Sadly, that's not
everyone's view.]
“If the central government could protect the lives, freedom and
property of citizens and make sure that it’s people, when exercising
their rights, do not infringe the same rights of their fellow citizens,
it would be able to face any criticism of its system.” Alex Woo, July31.
[ Very similar to Karma quotation, "There is a destiny that makes
us brothers: none goes his way alone,
All that we send into the lives of others comes back into our own."
~Edwin Markham.]
On the famine in East Africa….”Why not donate the money instead to
people in real need…” Wilda Fong, July 31.
[No chance Wilda, Hongkongers will not even help the cage dwellers or
give Fruit Money to your own seniors, who live over the border because it is
cheaper rent.]
[If, "charity begins at home" does that mean you will not
be giving the Maids very much?]
“Laws apply equally, even to tycoons:’
On the topic of rich tycoons and the elite
politicians who owning illegal structures, who demonstrate a practice
which suggests that they are
above the law…….. ‘No one is above the law. The government should
energetically enforce the law with zero tolerance.” Opinion, 2 August.
[Query: does that include the basic law and how it relates to all
foreigners?]
On the topic of HK being mature and taking responsibility for it’s own
affairs, as complained by the Chinese Ministry of Affairs for HK and
Macau…..Regina Ip (Lawmaker) calls for the Peoples’ Republic of china
engage itself early and to make a determination (that would circumvent
the HK domestic courts on a domestic issue).
[Grow up Regina ! The letter goes on to say that HK's mini constitution
is thereby one step closer towards complete absorption by the mainland.]
(Credit to reader: Ms. Marian Schneps, 2 August.)
Across the page, Simon Young’s half page article says that by precisely
following mainland law, HK is now “open for business” for investments
from Mugabe, Congo and other corrupt dictators as HK courts mimics the
immunity from law practised by the mainland, without regard for human
rights implications. “The idea of HK harbouring past and present
leaders, wanted for international crimes is by no means fanciful.”
[Watch your step Regina, copying the mainland is a slippery path and it's morally down hill !
" There is still hope, but a LOT needs to change for HK to be vibriant
like the late 80s and early 90s. Sucking up to CCP and this education
about patriotism (to China) is NOT one of them." Nulle, 2 August.
"There is no legal or ethical basis for denying domestic helpers
permanent residence here via the same guidelines used for every other
migrant." Spike, 2 August.
"On Welfare provisions....Lam received 1600 HKD/ month plus 1490 for
her disabled daughter,
", CITY Section, August 2
[ How generous the Hongkonger's treat their own people. Helper's don't hold your breath !]
54% of HK agree that their wages are fair, but 45% don’t like their
job, but 64% feel good about the recognition they get for doing a good
job. Directory, August 2.
[Wouldn't it be nice if the maids had the same opinions? ]
And finally….
Talking about bayonets…”They don’t like it up ‘em!” Lance Corporal
Jack Jones, Dad’s Army, BBC 1977
Comment by stephen on August 4, 2011 at 1:54 am
BREAKING NEWS from SCMP Aug 3
3 year old kids in HK display signs of racial prejudice based on skin colour….(Steve suggests, “classical conditioning” and imitation from parents.)
80% of Hongkongers want universal suffrage early…wait a minute, are these the same folks who’s maids don’t get a day off on Statutory Holidays or only allowed 12 hours off on a Sunday?
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by Sorlo on August 4, 2011 at 10:25 am
People seem to have forgotten that Hong Kong has always been a city for refugees/immigrants. Many people’s parents and grandparents were refugees from the Japanese invasion of China, war between the so-called Nationalists and so-called Communists, genocide in Burma, civil unrest in India and Pakistan, and the war in Vietnam. If we could deal with the waves of refugees in the 30′s, 40′s and 50′s, which doubled the population every few years when a large number of us were living in poverty, why the hell should we feel alarmed by a few more immigrants from the Philippines and Indonesia? If the Basic Law says that “Persons not of Chinese nationality who have entered Hong Kong with valid travel documents, have ordinarily resided in Hong Kong for a continuous period of not less than seven years and have taken Hong Kong as their place of permanent residence” are permanent residents of the HKSAR, then, those who have satisfied the requirements are us. The Hong Kong miracle is mostly attributed to British administration and the hardworking immigrants, who are undeniably more able and ready to adapt to changing environments. If we are to lose our tolerance and readiness to accept new immigrants, we are doomed.
By the way, I do not for a second believe the government’s propaganda that 250,000 people will become permanent residents overnight. How many of the domestic helpers working here can satisfy the requirement that they have taken Hong Kong as their place of permanent residence? You tell me.
Comment by nulle on August 4, 2011 at 3:43 pm
SorLo,
to answer your question from your blog and here…
***NO** Not after June 30, 1997.
Those who can leave already left. Those who got foreign citizenship don’t gave them up unless they are running for political office.
why? how hong kong has changed away from its promises..50 years of no-changes (press censorship, attempt enactment of Article 23, police brutality similar to the 60s vs. late 80s, limitation on freedom of assembly, CCP interference on Court of Final Appeal Decisions, etc.)
remember the 80s when HK-ers discriminate again the vietnamese refugees and the people from the mainland… however, the discrimination is not that obvious or blatant compared to the DH issues today.
Comment by stephen on August 4, 2011 at 6:18 pm
Sorlo, according to SCMP newspaper (2 August) they are talking about
500,000 potential immigrants !
But in the same paper (3 Aug) the DAB (political group) suggested 125,000 helpers have been here for more than 7 years…….so anything above that is pure speculation.
So how would maids pay rent and expenses, if they suddenly moved out from Employers’ homes to live with family (assuming employers allowed that)?
Would maids bring kids to a place where they couldn’t go to an English medium school?
Would Hong kong nurses come back from Canada & Australia if they couldn’t put their kids into an English school? …Hey, 1997 is over – nothing happened…people in UK were told that 6M hongkongers would be rushing to UK, so don’t give them passports. We did give passports…but 6 Million didn’t come.
Same with minimum wage, Chinese born kids from HK fathers, etc etc.
It’s all nonesense!
Steve says they need to hire some of those NASA scientists, to help with the mathematics….
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by stephen on August 5, 2011 at 1:05 am
Spike, Jack and Gerry all went very quiet?
David Chan found the kitchen was too hot to handle. Pity. He was learning quickly.
Is anybody doing stuff to help apart from chatting?
Any good ideas anybody? Steve/
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by Pike on August 5, 2011 at 10:26 am
“FUCKING” Spike!!! You are either really stupid, naive, or BOTH!
Your Addendum #1: You, “FUCKING” Spike, need to put others (Movie Tam, etc.) down!
Your Addendum #2: You, “FUCKING” Spike, need to stop calling others name!
“FUCKING” Spike, practice what you preach! Talk is cheap!
And “FUCKING” Spike, for you information…
Just because the maid cook, clean the house, and take the kids to school, etc does NOT make them an important component of the Hong Kong economy. The maid exists only because most Hong Kong professionals are lazy when it comes to household tasks; they can do without the maids. You only need to take a look at Japan (who by the way also has long working hours) and see how they balance family and work! If you take away all the maids tomorrow, the Hong Kong economy is not going to die or shrink or enter a crisis!!!
Put your “FUCKING” head on, if you have one! Dumb shit head!
Maybe you need to head back to the Bronx, bro, where you belong with all those other dumb ass there.
Dick!
Comment by Spike on August 5, 2011 at 11:48 am
I knew sooner or later someone would respond to this with a personal attack. It actually took a little longer than I expected.
Comment by Church Pastor of Filipino Church in Hong Kong on August 5, 2011 at 3:46 pm
For me, It’s a great benefits for all who are working here in Hong Kong as a Domestic Helpers, especialy my country men Filipinos, for 7 years and above, as if we will keep in praying that God will touch the heart and lives of the Hong Kong Gov’t to grant their request. For me can be good for their families, most of this DHs that working for along long time are suffering from Family & Marital Problems, broke families because they are away from their families for a long time, just to work her in Hkg. for me it is the good benefits for them to receive the right of abode so that in future they can work together here in hong kong and to help building the nation. I declare that our God will touch the Hong Kong Gov’t. in htis matter. God bless.
Comment by stephen on August 5, 2011 at 4:23 pm
I take offense at Mr Pike’s remarks and I cannot agree with them.
We are having an Adult discussion here and people like me are giving you links to evidence, stating facts and showing you what the United Nations thinks about Human Rights abuses and racism in HK.
Mr Pike is providing himself as an exemplar, in terms of racism and attitude.
Hongkongers want universal suffrage now. They want by -elections to continue.
(I support them.)
Hongkongers refuse statutory holidays for maids, deny them the international human right to 24 hours continuous rest per week and keep their passports.
Mr Pike, please give us your facts, your evidence and your references to documents in support of your opinions.
If you are using trust and logic, you will persuade us.
The world is watching and listening.
thank you.
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by stephen on August 5, 2011 at 4:27 pm
CORRECTION
If you are using TRUTH and logic, you will persuade us.
The world is watching and listening.
thank you.
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by stephen on August 5, 2011 at 5:51 pm
Dearest Pastor,
would you please have faith in me and send me a personal e-mail.
I am here to help, but need more connections with the community.
Thank you.
scrampton8@aol.com
English Engineer, 49
(I am on linked-in network)
You are all welcome to contact me with valid topics.
Comment by stephen on August 5, 2011 at 6:23 pm
HK’s Race Discrimination Ordinance – and it’s global !
The RDO allows employers of foreign domestic helpers to select their helpers on the basis of race.
The other provisions in the RDO become applicable once the employment contract takes effect, which may be at the time when the helper enters Hong Kong (in the case where the helper has to wait for her/his employment visa outside Hong Kong), or when the approval to work is issued by the Immigration Department (in the case where the new helper is not required to leave Hong Kong pending the approval from the Director of Immigration).
The RDO applies even when the helper has to perform her/his duties outside of Hong Kong for a short period of time, such as when the employer takes the helper along for holiday. (From; Community Legal Information Centre, HK)
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by stephen on August 5, 2011 at 6:45 pm
FROM JIM RICE AT THE HK HUMAN RIGHTS MONITOR
Are there different laws for domestic helpers, different laws for other foreigners and different laws for Hong Kong people?
Immigration laws about who can come here and who can stay here are different for different nationalities. But once you are here, there is one legal standard which applies to everyone.
But domestic helpers and other overseas contract workers need valid employment contracts. If an employer terminates my contract, then I must get a good release letter to take to the immigration department and a new contract with a different employer all within two weeks. Is this the same for other foreigners like Americans or Japanese?
No, it’s not. It’s much easier for them to switch from job to job. This is because very few of them come here as domestic helpers. Foreigners who are not domestic helpers are not subjected to the so-called “two week rule” for example.
Well, I thought that you said there is only one law for all of the people living in Hong Kong. It doesn’t sound like that to me.
It’s true that the law doesn’t always treat everyone the same. There are special rules for domestic helpers. Some of these, like the two week rule, are unfair. That rule has been criticized by the United Nations as a form of racial discrimination. But this is a book about what the law actually is, not what it should be. I didn’t actually say that all of the laws were fair. That’s another question altogether. The laws of Hong Kong should provide equal protection and equal duties to all people living here regardless of ethnic group, race or nationality. The fact that it doesn’t always do this…
What’s the point of trying to learn all of these things when the authorities have all of the power and we have none?
It’s not true to say that we have no power. The rule of law which still applies in Hong Kong gives us some measure of power in fact. This means that the laws on Hong Kong apply to all people living here. And by educating yourself, by knowing your rights and by challenging the people who hold positions of power, you are showing them that you are a human being with dignity and value. You are demonstrating that you are a person who is to be respected. Very often, if you don’t stand up for yourself, no one else will!
(AND THAT’S WHY THEY NEED CITIZENSHIP)
credits to MR. RICE, HK HUMAN RIGHTS MONITOR http://www.hkhrm.org
Comment by josh bob on August 6, 2011 at 3:25 am
sorry but THIS IS CALLED REALLY UN HUMAN
Comment by Spike on August 6, 2011 at 9:49 am
Stephen, maybe start your own blog instead of just posting comments here day after day? Just a thought …
Comment by THE VISA MAN on August 6, 2011 at 12:40 pm
Agree w Spike – it is a little bit too long what Stephen is posting here.
In generally the final conclusion can be: If they get the right granted, HK
society need to take the costs + finding a new maid every 6 years:
And this will be the biggest negative turnout of that action – so in the end the few seeking that right now will bring damage to tens of thousands.
Comment by stephen on August 6, 2011 at 1:07 pm
Hello Spike,
I hope you haven’t taken offence.
When somebody’s human rights are on the table, it doesn’t help to have too many tables.
Yours is the most sensible and rational debate on line at the moment.
This is the place where people like that charming Mr Pike, can come to see the flip side to the story. Let’s keep the subject alive for the sake of the girls.
Please feel free to drop me a line Spike.
Have a good weekend,
Steve
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by stephen on August 12, 2011 at 9:49 pm
Hello dear readers,
On Aug 5, SCMP’s Martin Wong reported that “foreign domestic workers are exempt from Article 24 of the basic Law, which grants residency to anyone who has been ordinarily resident in HK for 7 years.” If Martin is correct in his reporting and correct in his use of the word “exempt”, I very much doubt we would be having a forthcoming case.
Martin reported that Civic Party Lawmaker, Alan Leong, stated that “To qualify for the right of abode, one has to pay tax, “…etc.
Do readers know if this statement about tax is true or false?
On August 8, Mike Rowse (a Director of a Recruitment Agency) wrote an article in SCMP titled, “Reason has been cast out in the debate over maids’ rights.” Mike cited improper scare tactics from the DB Party. I believe their disproportionate figures were unreasonable and unhelpful. Their “worst case scenario” does little to give the Public a fair and balanced understanding of the situation and is kind of similar to the public consultation on a third runway, without first publishing all the facts.
What do readers think?
On August 9, Waseem Ahmed Butt (a good old fashioned name) strongly opposed the idea of helpers being given right of abode. He presumably has his own special perspective on the costs of keeping a Filippino and the jobs markets they have access to. Waseem is concerned that “there should be some kind of regulations to force people to look for work…rather than living on Welfare.” Waseen obviously hasn’t looked at the government web site on the regulation of Social Security claimants. Most people are ill- informed on the prospects of a Helper getting assistance. (Let’s face it people, the locals will not even give “Fruit Money” to their “own” elderly.)
On August 11, SCMP “Insight”, a half page article by Tony Kan ( a Solicitor), gives readers a “taster” of opinions to come, by improperly using the word “influx” in the opening line. Now, readers will understand that the word “influx” carries an amount of quantum, within its ordinary meaning, so scare tactics are immediately anticipated. Tony says that” 125,000 of them could be added to our population overnight”…but hey, aren’t they already here, Tony? Definitions of “population” refer to “inhabitants” and “the entire pool”, which would suggest that helpers are part of the population. I doubt that they did not appear on census statistics. Perhaps readers can elaborate?
Tony goes on to advise that the Government should “consider a legislative amendment to prevent political and socio-economic turmoil”. He writes of “one country, two systems.”
Wrong on both counts Tony! There have been Helpers in Macau with “White Cards” since the mid- 1980’s and without any socio-economic problems. Unemployment in Macau is tiny. It is all “business as usual” over there, so what are the genuine pro’s and cons?
If HK further targets Helpers, it will be for purely selfish reasons and result in further criticism from the United Nations. Comparing Macau, we will see “One Country, Three Systems”. Only one will be founded on racial or class based discrimination. What do readers think?
Comment by josh bob on August 14, 2011 at 1:14 am
dear sir,
i am a unknown man who live here in HongKong . i don’t know what is right or what is wrong i don’t care how hard HK GOVT should work to make Hongkong still same better place but FDH are also human like us so the should also get respect like us. every body have rights you can’t kill someone coz if you if you don’t so many people and you need to make more buildings or hospitals …………….. its the most funny thing ever someone told me. how selfish we are .
Bob
Comment by kath on August 16, 2011 at 4:29 pm
Just my two cents…
The focus is on immigration laws, and this is different from human rights, decent treatment, fair treatment, etc., etc. The point is, maids come into HK to fulfill a work contract. How that contract is fulfilled, whether it is to the letter, leaves them vulnerable to abuse, etc, is a different topic altogether. I agree with the earlier comment that this is all bleeding hearts comments and should be addressed separately.
Unfortunately, due to their circumstances, they can only apply for a DH contract and that contract is different from a professional contract entered into by skilled workers. Other Filipinos enter HK and take up professional jobs and are entitled to obtain residency after 7 years. So this is not discrimination against the Filipino nationality. Point is, DH, or low-skilled workers are more easily replaced, dispensable and subject to a different set of terms, which they accept once they sign the contract.
I’m all for fairer treatment of maids, but like I said, that’s a different topic.
Comment by Josh bob on August 16, 2011 at 11:13 pm
Nice you mean if some1 is poor and not skilled so they don’t have rights like you ( rich and skilled) got it. I wish you was born as a maid and non skilled so someone ask you same thing and I am sure you never reply same
Comment by stephen on August 17, 2011 at 12:22 am
Bob, I think Kath means that all those Chinese people working in Fast food shops, restaurants and laundries and factories, across UK Europe Canada USA and Australia are all “disposable” and should never have been granted equal rights of Citizenship.
I am sure Kath must be correct and half of the modern world is clearly wrong.
Perhaps Kath would like to comment on the Helpers in The Middle East, who are put to death after being repeatedly raped until finally turning against their Employer. Perhaps Kath can explain why HK chooses not to use Helpers from China. She seems to have an answer for everything.
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by josh bob on August 17, 2011 at 1:12 am
Hi I don’t know who you are and what u do but I just wanna say I live in hk and know some FDH’s they have many problems like wife live here coz she can send money home and husband use that many to buy other girls in different ways some time some FDH’s father mother brother or sister die there but they can’t go back their home coz boss say sorry we are working who will take care kids if you live in hk I believe you trust me if I ask you not a single boss request for leave coz his or her helper’s family pass away so they allow her to go home and he or she wanna stay home to take care kids it’s mean that we don’t respect them and we bought all their right for 3580 hk$ .
I don’t know if it is helpful or not but I want you to know that even you know much earlier then me.
I want hk to respect them coz they also like us and they got rights as every one say. They are also happy and sad they feel things like us they are not powerful so we can’t be great to pay 3580 hk$ and that’s it.
Regards
Bob
Sent from my iPhone
Comment by josh bob on August 17, 2011 at 1:13 am
Hello Bob,
I wish you would put this comment on http://hongkietown.com
I have lived in HK and Asia for a long time. I know what is going on and why. If the husbands feed the kids but waste money of beer and girls, HK Employers have no business worrying about that.
The truth is that the girls all come from poverty, slums, rats and no good jobs.
HK used to have slums and corruption.
It now takes unfair advantage by “helping” these poor people by allowing them to work under a contract.
If a starving man is asked to sign a confession, of course he will sign it and then eat and then worry about what happens afterwards.
I know that many Helpers are not allowed to hold their passport or even have a copy of their contract.
One girl was put in prison in HK last month. She destroyed her bosses money and flushed it down the toilet after being raped. She found the money when looking in the bosses drawers, seeking her contract.
She is in prison for theft. The rape was not investigated and not considered.
Here is my latest letter to SCMP Newspaper>>>
After a month of diatribe on the subject of Domestic Helpers, I am grateful to Mr. Ho Yun-Sum for his correspondence dated Sunday 14 August. It is refreshing, at long last, to read confirmation from an indigenous person of what we all knew in our hearts, all along.
The simple truth is that many middle-class Hongkongers are relying on imported cheap labour, from poverty stricken regions, in order to facilitate their better lifestyle; afforded by dual parental incomes. To be fair, that is no different than western families buying cheap products from India and such like, where modern day slavery is rife. The difference however, is that the west is actively trying to stop these overseas abuses, whilst Asia’s World City seems content, in this instance at least, to continue it.
It is a frustrating fact that HK seems unable or unwilling to learn from Macau (where such issues have been amicably solved) and Macau seems unwilling to learn from HK in other areas of social development. Are these examples of systemic ignorance and selfishness, blindly promoted to such an extent that the results are worse than the sum of the parts? Is HK’s approach to suppressing gay rights, mistreating minority workers, providing lesser education of South Asian and neglecting its (“fruitless”) elderly, the appropriate exemplar of progressive human development, which will secure Hong Kong respect in the World, for generations to come?
I offer the simple solution of fixing a fair salary for a fixed number of hours per month, allowing legal part-time working, ending curfews and allowing the girls to live out. In Macau, they receive 500 housing allowance…Oh, and give Grandma her fruit money !
HK needs to develop self respect, decency and fair-play, before it can pretend to lead Asia by example.
best wishes Bob…..and let’s keep trying to help these lovely people.
Stephen Crampton
Comment by major on August 22, 2011 at 5:11 am
in god;s name please do not make this domestic helpers permanant residents please. these domestic helpers will never be Obedient and will never work the same way they work all these time……..
Comment by major on August 22, 2011 at 5:50 am
hong kong should go the same way, no changes should be done, it is not healthy, already people have problems finding jobs,
remember this carefully, there are over 300,000 foreign domestic helpers work in hong kong, if all these will start to bring their families the totall will rise nearly 2 million new population. so i strongly say no, do not make these domestic helpers a permanant residents, this can be a big mistake, the helpersd never will work the way they work till now, they are not usefull to this economy any more, no employer can take a work from them the same way any more. so i say no no no this will be a junk city if all these people will bring their families aftewr they become residents.
let the hong kong run in its way hong kong is hong kong, it cannot be usa or uk. or it will ruin
major453@yahoo.com contac me…here
Comment by Spike on August 22, 2011 at 6:41 am
Your numbers are completely off the scale and completely made up, or do you not realize that? And not sure what god has to do with any of this.
Comment by Juliana on August 22, 2011 at 7:21 am
I say cut expat salaries in half since most are over paid in order to entice them to work here in HK and this was done more so during pre 1997 and Mr and Mrs generosity and goodwill towards domestic helpers attitude will no sooner disappear than you can say “Bob is your Uncle” It`s easy when you`re living comfortably and not paying the high over heads and having low costs and being over paid and with subsidies. I asked and mentioned earlier in my post why don`t you pay double your domestic helper underneath the table or create a public fund for them domestic helpers? It seems no one responded to what I said. It`s always nice to look holier than thou when it doesn`t hurt you you. I totally agree with what some of the posters say from above for example don`t force your USA or UK or western values over here. If you like those values so much then what are you doing over here?. I said earlier about the domestic helpers obviously they got it worse in their own home country so they come here for a better income. I surely don`t respect countries who can`t treat their own people with respect so why should they get it over here? Count themselves lucky that they`re getting a better shake over here than in their own country. I`ll like to put a twist to this if expats don`t like the way the work environment is for domestic helpers then like I said earlier pay them more or leave this place HK since you truly believe this place is uncivil and inhumane obviously this will fall on death ears. Bottom line I have a feeling people who defend and try to appear open minded and Pro domestic helper have ulterior motives or hidden strings/agenda or conflict of interest with them. Like their girlfriend, mistress, wife is a domestic helperor origin at one time or another. Hypocrites!
Comment by Josh bob on August 22, 2011 at 9:20 am
dont mind major420 O…… Sorry no it’s major453 he is a Indian so he should think like that I know him
Comment by Spike on August 22, 2011 at 10:02 am
Juliana, maybe no one responded to what you posted before because your posts are opinionated, biased and without any facts to back up your wild theories. Not paying high “overheads” in Hong Kong? You mean like the crazy high real estate prices and the crazy retail prices which result from the rent they pay? I’m not an expat and I do not receive subsidies and I’ll bet that I pay a lot more tax than you do. FYI, I pay my domestic helper more than the minimum wage. I don’t believe that Hong Kong is “uncivil or inhumane” but I do believe some of Hong Kong’s residents are and I suspect you may be one of them.
Comment by Juliana on August 22, 2011 at 10:21 am
Spike,
“Juliana, maybe no one responded to what you posted before because your posts are opinionated, biased and without any facts to back up your wild theories.” “I’m not an expat and I do not receive subsidies and I’ll bet that I pay a lot more tax than you do. ”
People don`t respond because I made my points and it`s accurate earlier.
Using what you just said you assume automatically that you make a higher salary than me because you think you pay higher taxes? Well you`re a perfect example of those holier than thous that I was talking about earlier.
“I pay my domestic helper more than the minimum wage”
Sure , what extra do you pay? $500-$1000 an extra month for tokenism? I think I`m being very nice by saying what I said in those figures you probably just give an extra $1-200 a month. I was thinking more in the line of double their pay as I mentioned earlier.
My point about uncivil and inhumane is what others have said so don`t twist what I said Spike. You assume too much and are very condescending.
I still stand on what I said earlier reduce the salaries in half and people will talk less because they don`t want to put their money where their mouth is. It`s always nice to be talking and playing/appearing to be generous when it doesn`t hurt you or cost you. Put up or ship out!
Comment by Spike on August 22, 2011 at 12:24 pm
i assume that I pay higher taxes than you because I don’t qualify for the various deductions that I think you might qualify for. Even if our salaries are the same, I suspect I pay higher taxes than you. “Put up or ship out”? So you’re now the authority for who can stay or who can’t? Who is being condescending here? There is no arguing with a closed mind and feel free to post all the comments you want in the future but I won’t be responding to them.
Comment by Juliana on August 22, 2011 at 1:04 pm
“There is no arguing with a closed mind and feel free to post all the comments you want in the future but I won’t be responding to them.” Looks who is the closed mind by closing the door to this discussion.
People who say this is doing the cheap cop out and are very childish. Thanks for keeping your trap shut and I know I am asking for too much but better yet just stay out of this forum and it will be an even double blessing. I remember when I was in primary school and before we played the game of tag we`d mention some disclosures before the game of tag and what you just said is so rearward and shows your true nature under the heat. Childish puberty pubic hair Spike!
“i assume that I pay higher taxes than you because I don’t qualify for the various deductions that I think you might qualify for. Even if our salaries are the same, I suspect I pay higher taxes than you.”
What type of imbecile statement is this? Are you sure that YOU are not Forrest Gump? Once again juvenile childish and it almost sounds like naaa naaa na na naaaaaaaaaa that one would used in a primary school to ridicule other people. LOL!! So phrasing your word “assume” It`s safe to “assume” that you assume I have various deductions therefore you pay higher taxes?? Once again your holier than thou shows through Spike. You assume nothing but one thing I know and don`t need to assume is everything that you`ve said in here is based on your irrational and unstable and condescending assumptions.
““Put up or ship out”? So you’re now the authority for who can stay or who can’t? Who is being condescending here?”
I`m the authority to you so long as you give me the authority which obviously you got no character so you “assume” my statement as an authority over you. There is an old saying no one can control you unless you give them the power to and you my nursery rhyming thinking friend is what you are.
So please do remember your promise to me though I do hope you`ll speak out again. Shape up or ship out Forrest Gump Spike! You`re the type of Hongkie that likes to appear and the key word is “appear” civilized and western but deep down inside you`re highly irrational and unstable when provoked and you revert back to your roots.
Comment by scrampton8 on August 22, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Hello Folks,
I would like to respond to Major and Juliana.
Major – your use of the work is very telling. Like Bob, I believe that you are yourself, from the minority part of the HK community which is prejudiced against. Your kids get lesser choice of schools and your group is not trained to sufficient levels of Chinese language, which provides an excuse for the Indigenous Chinese to raise employment barriers against non-chinese.
Racial prejudice is happening right now in the medical profession as it protects the local job market. I will give you 500HKD for every Indian origin policeman or public servant you can find in HK. All these things are wrong. Some are evil. If you have a vested interest (a real concern) please spell it out honestly and openly.
I am in Macau and here there are Filipino’s holding “White Cards” for over 20 years now. There is no problem in the economy and unemployment is around 3% (like HK). As full citizens of Macau, they can try for any job.
It is called “The Free Market”. That is the same thing which will work in HK. The discrimination is not necessary and you should know better.
If you want obedience, get a dog. If you want a domestic worker, allow her reasonable work hours. 200+ hours per month is “abuse”. parts of the world are indeed wicked. That does not provide you with a moral or lawful excuse to take advantage of another person. “Do unto others, as you would have them do to you”
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by scrampton8 on August 22, 2011 at 4:27 pm
Correction from Steve, Sorry.
Major – your use of the worD ” OBEDIENCE” is very telling……..
Comment by scrampton8 on August 22, 2011 at 5:11 pm
Juliana. Thanks for your views.
I have been around since 1986. If your history of HK goes back further, I will be glad of history lessons. You are correct that some privileges remain from colonial days. Those are benefits for Public Servants, now almost all local Chinese employees / officials. The locals have taken the Expat jobs, and quite rightly so…but public money for sending Chinese kids to University overseas is “corruption”, sorry. (Only a small number foreigners remain in office.)
You are wrong to suggest that Expats increased their own salaries up before the Handover and it is still the same levels today. The majority of jobs have been “localised”. All public sector jobs have been localised. That means lower salaries for Expats. Many left after 1997 but some have local spouses and remain.
Those specialists who just came back, for example to do MTR construction projects, don’t get packages like before, but they love HK and many are “Permanent” residents…..unless they leave for 3 years, after which they are rejected. “Permanent” is not permanent in HK.
Returning to the topic of Maids / Helpers. There is a good reason why they all want to work for foreigners. We give them fair pay in return for fair effort, measured by a reasonable number of work hours…not 16 hrs/day!
Juliana, please repeat your opinion on the following, so that we can share with you…
“My point about uncivil and inhumane is…?”
(Is Juliana saying that HK is civil and humane?)
If so, that position goes against part of the United Nation’s official view of HK treatment of Helpers. (see http://www.cmab.gov.hk/ …lower human rights in HK, report was 2009…but problems valid today.)
So, Juliana, we are not trying to impose USA or western opinion into HK.
We want UN (Inter Labour Organization) global standards in force here. It works in Macau, no problems ! [ no modern day slavery, no keeping passports, no false imprisonment, no raping (like the Indonesian girl reported in the SCMP newspaper last month, raped and now in prison)… no beatings, proper feeding…enough said?)
Just because there is wickedness, starvation, poverty and corruption in the world, doesn’t mean that it is okay in thousands of HK apartments, including those of Juliana, Steve or Major.
It is the mis-treatment by thousands of local Employers, which is the painful truth. Check Macdonnald’s tonight and see how many Helpers you find, after their housework. I bet you find they are not allowed out of the flat, ‘coz they are still on call.
Let us know your findings, ok !
Thank you
Thanks also to Spike for setting up this chat.
SCrampton8@aol.com
Comment by scrampton8 on August 23, 2011 at 1:56 pm
Spike was the person who was kind enough to start this discussion in the first instance. Well done for that Spike. Please everyone keep on track and keep on the topic. We should not be getting too excited and personal. Please stick to facts and give references or evidence, when you can.
Thank you all.
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by Spike on August 23, 2011 at 9:29 pm
Dude, I gotta say, you don’t live in Hong Kong, you don’t employ a domestic helper, I can’t figure out why you’re all over this one. At any rate, it’s in the hands of the courts at the moment.
Comment by scrampton8 on August 24, 2011 at 1:06 am
Hello Spike,
lots of people live in both places and travel back and forth.
Macau has Helpers and the statutory pay would keep Juliana happy> 2500 per month and the girls work 8am till 10pm or more. Here they are allowed to live out and they often eat out. They get a wonderful 500 bucks extra for that privilege. We have DH’s, waitresses, Hotel housekeepers(6,000) and RN nurses(10,000) with Full Citizenship since BEFORE the handover – no problems, no discrimination, no influx.
Macau expats get to see the best and worst of both places. That includes their governance by selfish business people, mal-administration and culture.
Having criticsised others, I declare my vested interest is my many Asian friends, including HK locals. I have a strong belief / value system….and a willingness to educate !
Please e-mail me any time Spike.
Let’s hope for the best, not followed by further discrimination. HK has enough of that already.
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by Church of scrampton999999999 Hell on August 25, 2011 at 9:52 am
This blog is amusing, comical in a hellish way. Seems most of the people here do not really know the issue, and are just using smearing tactics; especially that scrampton8 whatever or whoever you are. I really couldn’t stop laughing reading your posts where you given links to non-existence websites, probably quoted a non-existence person out of context, and ridiculously stated these as evidences. Evidences to what? These are just others’ opinions. What’s with the racism, human rights, etc… (loaded words) accusations? Looks more like a smearing blog than anything else.
scram…, seems that you are more into promoting yourself through smearing tactics using this blog. Are you trying to recruit activists or create a cult or something?
And for the childish Spike, if you are not scrampton8, then scrampton8 is using and shitting on your blog here!
Come to think of it, I would not be surprise at all if most of the posts on here from “different” people NAMES are actually from the same person. Come on… “Church Pastor of Filipino Church”, “qweipo”, etc.
For scrampton8, before you jump the gun and start disagreeing with me and calling me a racist, my questions here are only rhetorical questions. In case you don’t know what “rhetorical questions” means, you can check it out at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rhetorical+question
Oh yes, I forgot that the world has nothing better to do and is watching and listening!
Comment by JPD on August 26, 2011 at 11:21 am
Hong Kong is built on the backs of immigrant workers and could not or will not survive without the steady influx of such group of people. Whether you are Cantonese, Mainland Chinese, Western or South-East Asian all the people living and working here now are either immigrant or from immigrant descent. There was nobody in Hong Kong when it was first settled except Haka people (rural farmers). Seven years of service to one economy is more than enough to warrent permanent citizenship. It was only around twenty years ago that Mainland Chinese fleeing the “Cultural Revolution” and oppression in China were given citizenship simply by touching Hong Kong land.
I agree wholeheartedly with this article and support the domestic helpers in their struggle for the right of abode in Hong Kong. Which ever way you look at it domestic helpers play a vital and important role in our economy and society. I am very grateful to people like Evangeline Banao Vallejos because she has opened everyones eyes to the way Filipino people are treated here in Hong Kong and how it is time they are given the rights every other person here enjoys.
Comment by scrampton8 on August 26, 2011 at 2:35 pm
Hello Spike,
I recall that we have had two correspondents (bloggers on here) who were offensive and could not respond with proper facts and arguments when we challenged them. I do miss them both.
We now seem to have a “changling”, or half-person, who also cannot keep on the topic or even give an honest name.
I have been challenged about my “link”. It is
http://www.cmab.gov.hk/doc/en/documents/references/papers_reports_others/human_rights/concluding_observations_2009_e.pdf
It says (from the United Nations 2009) ( and nothing has improved in 10 years anyways), Quote from CERD/C/CHN/CO/10-13 >
———————————————————–
30. Despite the adoption of legislative measures aimed at combating discrimination in Hong
Kong SAR, the Committee reiterates its concern (A/56/18, para. 248) at the situation of migrant
workers, and in particular domestic migrant workers. It notes with concern that the “two-weeks
rule” (whereby domestic migrant workers have to leave Hong Kong within two weeks upon
termination of contract) continues to be in force, as well as the live-in requirement, and that
migrant workers may be subject to longer working hours, and shorter rest and holiday periods.
It goes on with other concerns.
Having one’s employment visa tied to an individual employer creates a powerful link between the livelihood of the Works (and survival of her family, education of her kids) and the ability of employers to abuse helpers without facing consequences. This ranges from keeping their passport and at the extreme end of the spectrum beatings and physical assult.
What do Honkietowners think?
I notice that they brought in “foreign labour” to represent the government, at great expense. Nice !
I wish Juliana was here to comment.
scrampton8@aol.com
Comment by lexsutil on August 27, 2011 at 3:53 pm
I almost cried reading the blog and most of the comments. My mom started working in Hongkong as a DH since 1986, same year, when Ms. Vallejos started working in Hongkong as well. It’s so overwhelming to find people fight for other people’s rights, its very inspiring. Just want to share my take on this issue, My mom is close to retirement, she’s already 56 and when she reaches the age of 60 she’s calling it quits. She worked for just 1 employer with her entire stay/work in Hongkong and I really can’t imagine her living in Hongkong afterwards, and she would really love to live and retire back here at home. I think the only reason why DHs wants residency is the freedom of living in HongKong not only because of the many benefits they would get out of it but I think because of being able to work in HongKong for a longer span of time. I think if there were Filipino DHs who plans to live and bring their families along with them to live in HongKong the ratio would be 3/10, because Filipinos are practical and would rather live their lives in the Philippines and work abroad. Imagine, since when Filipino people started working in Hongkong as DH? and why only now someone stood up and fight for the right to abode? We can’t blame, some, HongKong people are against this, but i hope they “TRY PUTTING THEIRSELVES IN THESE PEOPLE’s SHOE”.
Thanks Guys! With much love from the Filipinos out there!
Comment by scrampton8 on August 28, 2011 at 6:54 pm
Hello Lexsutil,
After a lifetime of working hard and sending money to take care of the kids and educate them (and with no HK pension to look forward to) only a selfish dreamer would claim that Filipinos plan to retire in HK and live some kind of free life here. If HK elderly cannot do that (google “fruit money’), what chance does a Pinoy have?
When you write that you believe that most (Helpers) would want residence (“PR”) for the freedom of living in Hong Kong do you mean:
not having to fall in line at immigration behind the tourists and to use the e-channel?
Do you mean taking care of your own passport and not havng Employers keep those, to keep Helpers trapped in HK (eg. when their is an emergency in Phils?
Do you mean having respect as human beings and being “allowed out” at night time, 7 days a week and not “false imprisonment”?
Does it mean more chance of day off on Legal holidays?
Am I slightly correct Lexsutil?
Where is Juliana when we need her comments?
best wishes,
scrampton8aol.com